When does one become an Atheist? Does it happen when you don’t
feel a spiritual connection with God? Is it when you start to disagree with stuff
in the bible? Are you an Atheist when you associate with other Atheists? Or only
when you declare yourself one? I don’t
know.
I grew up with a God. And I still like the idea of a God, but I have no feeling of knowing
one or trust that one of the religions out there has God figured out. And I’m
not “pretending” to have faith just in case there is a God, a sort of fake it
till I make it endeavour. Besides, if there is a God, he wouldn’t be fooled by
my pretending anyways.
I am a Pastor’s wife,
so I attend two church services every Sunday, as well as a bible study and church
events during the week. I do not feel a need to “convert” people, I have no way
of knowing who is “right” anyways. My husband knows where I’m at, and he is OK
with it. He has heard me, debated with me, and loved me through all of this. I had someone comment that they are sorry
for my husband’s church, I’m not sure why.
No one at church knows that I have serious doubts. I understand that it
would be inappropriate for me to debate questions of faith with people in our
church. They are good sweet people and I don’t wish my questions and doubts on
any of them. That is part of why I started this blog, as a place I could
wrestle openly with my faith questions and get interaction from people who
freely choose to read them.
Recently I received an email that said that if I truly was a
Pastor’s wife who did not know Jesus in a personal way, then I was a hypocrite
who needed to stop “playing church”. I’m not sure why this is the case. Am I
truly the only one who sits through a church service and wonders if it is all
true? Is every single other person in church a solid believer filled with faith
and religious experiences to prove it? What does “playing church” even mean? I know that on
my part I go to church with an open heart every single Sunday. I read, I sing,
I listen, I hope. Hope for what? I hardly know, just that something will
happen, that perhaps all of my faith will come flooding back?
I also received a comment asking if I would pray on my
deathbed. I’ve thought about that too. We pray a prayer of thanks
before meals, and a prayer for peace before bed. In the moment of silence before the church service I pray the same prayer for my husband that I have always prayed, "May his words be your words and not his own," so I still pray. I don’t know if I would pray
on my deathbed. At this point in my life I probably would. Many times prayer has been a source of anxiety
in my life, so I think I would still gravitate towards prayers I’ve found healing
or calming in the past. This question reminds me of a story I remember hearing
from someone about her ex-catholic mother who despite being a protestant for
many years, found herself praying along an invisible rosary while waiting in
the hospital to hear if her son would survive a traffic accident. I wonder if I
would be like that.
My thought process
involving God has changed in the last few months. I’ll try to explain how I currently
understand the existence of God.
Option 1: There is no God. If God does not exist, then I am
worrying and trying to have faith in something I can’t understand for no
reason, there is no God to please.
Option 2: There is a God, but God is a non-personal entity
who does not care about humanity. God is a being that set the world in motion,
but does not intervene or care about it. In this case, again, I am worrying
over nothing, God is not waiting for me to come up with the right words or
formula. God does not care.
Option 3: There is a God, and that God loves unconditionally
and cares about humanity. In this case,
God will be patient with my faults. If God truly loves unconditionally then God
will even understand if I can never really get my faith together in this life.
Unconditional love means just that, love without conditions.
Option 4: There is a God, and this God has rules and laws
about how you must live or what you must believe. God’s love is conditional. If
this is God, I could be in trouble. This scenario means that I somehow have to
decide which religion has the correct interpretation of God, and then do my
best to please that God and live my life the way God wants me to. For a long
time, fear of this God kept me scrambling. I had to figure out how to be
whatever it was God wanted. I was afraid of going to Hell. Recently, I’ve come
to the point of feeling that if God’s love is so conditional that God will send
people to hell for not following the right formula, than I really don’t want to
spend an eternity in heaven with that God. That heaven sounds like Hell to me.
So if option #4 is God, I would basically get to choose
between two hells. The Hell God will send me to if I am not right, or the Hell
in which I will spend an eternity with a God who (despite his very conditional
love) decided I was acceptable. I
wrestled and wrestled with this idea. I get love being conditional in some
sense. After all, if I was in a relationship where we had agreed to be
exclusive, and that person ignored that agreement and cheated on me, I could
understand ending that relationship. But
I would not send that person to eternal torment, just a parting of ways would
be sufficient. And despite what so many
Christians seem to claim, I never had that direct line to God. I was kept in a
constant state of guessing and hoping that I was doing the right thing for a
God that I’m not even sure exists.
And that was when I realized that there was a third Hell,
and I was living in it here on earth.
Despite all my growth as a person and as a parent, I was still stuck in
this one-way relationship with a perfectionistic God that I wasn’t entirely sure
was not a figment of my imagination. And so I stepped off the hamster wheel. I
gave myself permission to take a break from finding the answer for the whole God thing. I wasn’t hit by lightning and the world
didn’t stop spinning. I didn’t have a sudden urge to steal, rape or kill. I
stopped having nightmares about God, I stopped worrying about how and what I
was going to teach my kids about God, I stopped worrying about where I was
headed if an afterlife exists, and I started living the life I am currently
in.
I’m not even sure when this happened, I can’t point to an
exact moment. I can’t claim to have figured out the answer to the God question,
I honestly don’t know. But for the first time I am OK with not knowing. I
even feel OK if I never figure it out. I still read religious blogs and have
religious friends that I value highly. I also read atheist blogs and have
atheist friends that I value highly. So does all of this make me an Atheist? I
don’t know.
**********************
I would like to add, that (as much as I enjoy your company)
if you are reading my blog because you feel personally responsible for my
salvation, if you feel stressed or upset after reading my posts, if you are
wounded by my very raw and open thoughts about faith and life, then please don’t
read my blog. Unfriend me, unfollow me, I will understand. I blog about topics other
than my faith dilemma, and I welcome any
and all comments, thoughts, questions and suggestions along my journey, but I
am not seeking to be a source of pain or stress for people of faith.



big hugs, my friend. <3
ReplyDeleteI am in this spot sometimes, and I have rarely felt sure about divine realities, because it is so hard to know. I truly want to believe in an unconditional loving God, but sometimes things seem so mixed up.
ReplyDeleteabout not being a perfect believer and being a pastor's/priest's wife- doesn't the Bible say Take the log out of your eye before you comment on the splinter of another?
ReplyDeleteso- those people who emailed you should pray about it!
;)
Wow, are we sharing the same brain? I became Orthodox to retain my faith, but I'm still totally fine in "Not knowing or worrying" land.
ReplyDeleteI am firmly fixed on option #3, but I still get accused of being "on my way to atheism". Uh, nope. I know whom I believe, and that's Who He is. No worries, take your time, and hope truly is eternal.
ReplyDelete*contented sigh*
Honestly, I could have written this post (except for the still going to church part,I don't know how you do that!)
ReplyDeleteI don't think you are an atheist. I know I'm not one. I know that there is some force out there, but what he/she/it is, and how I'm supposed to interact with it, I have no idea.
#4 doesn't feel like Christianity to me. It feels like a tiresome pattern of trying to find the perfect works to do. I had that experience as a teenager, constantly trying to be perfect. Never matching up. I was already a Christian but OCD mixed with a tough family environment was messing with my head. That's when I heard the story of Martin Luther and how he felt the same way, striving to please God and never feeling he matched up and how he came into contact with unmerited grace...grace that grasped him and not the other way around. I continue to grapple with works...I guess it's human to do so, but that transformative experience for me gave me a touchstone to come back to and remember what Christianity is really all about. Yes, faith is necessary but it is the gift of God, not of me.
ReplyDeleteI like reading your thoughts. You know, I am in the same place at times.
ReplyDeleteI remember when I heard someone say that Faith is a Gift. It's not entirely within our control how much faith we have. We have control over our openness to faith. But whether our faith is large or small is different for each person. And what was once a small faith can turn into a large faith. And vice versa. It depends on where we are at any given point in our lives.
I remember that being a very freeing idea. I remember sort of letting go. I felt some freedom. I felt like I chose to simply be open.
Perhaps someday, I will feel called to be more active in the process and try to grow my faith. But at this point, I just want to learn to love God and serve Him where I am and have faith that He will meet me there. :)
Nobody is sure 100% of the time! If we were, it wouldn't be belief, it would be we-don't-know-any-other-way-to-think.
ReplyDeleteI believe in #3, a God of unconditional love, and I get torn down by those who believe in a conditional God (and that I am not meeting HIs conditions). But if you look in the Gospels, Jesus came to say 'Hey, nobody can earn their way into Heaven, so stop pretending like you have and looking down your nose at people you think haven't.' (paraphrased, of course) :)
You don't need to be 100% sure about God, and anyone who tells you otherwise is probably afraid to turn a mirror on their own beliefs.
Still here, still reading. Keep it coming:-).
ReplyDeleteI understand what you are feeling in a sense. I firmly believe in God. But all the doubts from all the sermons that demanded I perfectly do my part of the deed for salvation left me miserable. I started shaking free of those the farther we got away from fundamentalism. With the jump into Lutheranism, my escape was complete. The sheer relief of not thinking about it was amazing.
Enjoy your sweet family. I am so thankful for the path that you started me on toward connecting, compassionate parenting.
oh doubt. I know this place well. but have the luxary of voices my thoughts out loud. usually at church.
ReplyDeletekeep wrestling. it sucks. but it is so much better than all those people who never asked questions.
You are such an encouragement to me. I'm right where you are. Though I have had some interesting spiritual experiences. I believe it is you that informed me that people of many religions and faiths have similar experiences. So I believe what happened to be real, but not necessarily limited to those people who confirm certain bullet points on a power point presentation.
ReplyDeleteI have been "stalking" for a litte while but I wanted to comment on this one.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I just want to hug you and tell you how incredibly proud I am of you for being honest and forthright about your doubts and struggles. Most people are not that introspective or real.
Second, I think you missed an option. Option #5 there is a God who loves us unconditionally and makes rules for our benefit and learning. As a parent you would most likely die for your babies you love them so - but you also make rules in your family to try and protect and teach them. Your love isn't tied to your rules; your rules were made to help them have their best life.
Keep asking questions. Keep searching. Keep your heart open.
PS - Knowing atheists or reading blogs written by atheists doesn't make you one anymore than knowing an astronaut and reading space blogs means you're close to a trip to the mooon. :-) One of my closest, sweetest friends is an atheist and I have friends who are Muslim and Hindu and other religions - but I'm still a Christian.
- Cat
I have to agree with those commenters above who pointed out that faith is a gift. People often think it's something they have to find/earn/produce for themselves, and they end up frustrated because that's just not possible. Faith is given by God to those who are open to receiving, when they are ready. It sounds like you have an open mind and heart for the truth. So maybe God is just giving you the time you need to heal from your past, so that you will be more fully ready for faith in him when he sends it. I don't know for sure, of course, it's just a thought. :)
ReplyDeleteAlso, as far a God options, I believe #3 three is true, God loves us unconditionally. I don't see why this has to be mutually exclusive of God having laws for us to follow. After all, I would bet you love your children unconditionally, yet you still have rules for them. God's laws are not arbitrary demands from a petty God who delights in making us work for his approval and his love, just like your rules for your children aren't. They are guidelines he gives us BECAUSE he loves us, to help us live in freedom from pain and sin, just as you instruct your kids not to stick forks in electrical outlets or run into the street, because you know they could get hurt and you love them enough that you want to help prevent that pain and possible death.
God loves us unconditionally, whether we abide by his laws or not. He would never force us because he loves us and honors our free will. He wants us to live in his law, not out of fear of displeasing him and ending up in hell, but out of love for him who loves us so much. And love really is the key. He loves us. He wants us to love him. He's given us a law that helps us learn to love him and others better. Not perfectly, God knows us better than that! We aren't capable of being perfect because we're human. He just wants us to cooperate with his love and his unending offer of forgiveness and a reconciliation when we mess up.
And I do believe there is a hell, which is not a place where an angry and avenging God eternally torments those who displease him. Rather, God loves us so much that he will not force us to spend eternity with him if we choose not to. Therefore, out of God's love and respect for our free will, if we intentionally and purposefully refuse him all the way up to when we die, he honors our choice to be eternally separate from him, which is really what the torment of hell is: eternal separation, by our own choice, from the God who made us and who our soul is made for.
OK! Yeah, I'm a bit long-winded, sorry. :) Anyway, just wanted to share my understanding of faith and God based on Catholic teaching. Thanks for your sharing your thoughts so honestly in your posts!
-Casey
GREAT post. I loved this part especially:
ReplyDeleteAnd that was when I realized that there was a third Hell, and I was living in it here on earth. Despite all my growth as a person and as a parent, I was still stuck in this one-way relationship with a perfectionistic God that I wasn’t entirely sure was not a figment of my imagination. And so I stepped off the hamster wheel. I gave myself permission to take a break from finding the answer for the whole God thing. I wasn’t hit by lightning and the world didn’t stop spinning. I didn’t have a sudden urge to steal, rape or kill. I stopped having nightmares about God, I stopped worrying about how and what I was going to teach my kids about God, I stopped worrying about where I was headed if an afterlife exists, and I started living the life I am currently in.
I think the correct term for you (if you want to get technical) is agnostic. :)
I just wrote a post about my struggles trusting in God. I think it's normal.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't worry about the negative comments. You have quite the positive following, from what I have seen!
Keep on writing!
I'm glad that at least for now you've found contentment where you are, even in the questions. I also think it's a little ironic that some people think you shouldn't be in church while you have questions. Seems to me like it would be a good place to hopefully find some answers! What is church for if not that? Well, yes, to worship, but for those questioning, it should be a safe place to question. In my opinion, not that anyone asked me. ;)
ReplyDeleteYour husband sounds like a wonderful person!
ReplyDeleteI'm a Catholic (after a long, hard search and lots of doubting) and even though I hold certain things as true, I don't know God, I don't know What or Who He is, and so often I feel so very distant from Him. I know there will always be those questions and that emptiness of not knowing, but sometimes I remind myself of how He is present in the things He has made. I can't see Him, but I can feel my baby's little hand on me as I go to sleep, or see the delicate beauty of a flower, or know my children running and hugging me and telling me how much they love me. I sometimes think that when we do see Him, all those shadows of him, those reflections of His love and His beauty, will come together into one and we will recognize Him, and say, "Oh! There you are!" I'm stating this badly...but I guess I'm just saying that even when we may have found some answers, there is still a journey and a great abyss of not knowing. I love the poetry of J.M. Hopkins because he expresses that so well, that longing and unknowing that we must experience in this life.
I am right beside you. Where you are is where I am. I would love to believe in God. I really hope Option #3 is the true one. But I just don't know. I knock and the door isn't opened. I seek but I don't find.
ReplyDeleteI guess I'll just keep seeking and knocking, for now.
I so appreciate your honesty. My prayers are with you on this journey.
ReplyDeleteI recently finished a book, O Me of Little Faith by Jason Boyett, that you might find interesting. It's a quick but worthwhile read.
There are some brilliant books out there about why people chose to be atheist/agnostic.
ReplyDeleteI find it's better and healthier if I DONT think about it. I've read some great books about it, I've decided I'm agnostic and know I don't think about it.
Just live a happy, joyful life, trying to be a good person and treasure the big and small things in life.
And those who disagree-sometimes they themselves have doubts and so hate that which is most like them.
My best friend is a very liberal Christian and we talk about religion. The rest of my friends are agnostic, atheist and i have no idea. As we don't talk about it.
Love your blog!
Rachel (from fb)
You're not alone. My MIL is/was a pastor's wife (my FIL has passed). A few years ago, in a conversation about faith that I initiated, she commented that she "didn't really think" she believed in God. DH was surprised (not horrified) but I found I wasn't. She is very pastorally active, one of the most caring people I know, and very popular with the local congregation. For her, church is about community as much as faith. And she didn't marry the church. Faith is not a choice, it's about your innermost self. I love that you are at peace with, proud of, who you are. I've always suspected those who are at peace with their faith (or lack of) are the least likely to feel the need to convert others.
ReplyDeleteTruely, truely, you are not far from the kingdom of heavens...
ReplyDeleteThank you very much fr sharing this. I wish more poeple were so open and honest.
It is not our fault, if we doubt. This isn't a question of fault anyway. It's a state we are in, and that we have to cpe with til it's over. Like if you catch the flu. It happens, it doesn't feel too well at times, but we can live with it. In your case it seems, it was even a relief, as you could leave the #4 option of the condemner-god (whom I'd ratzer call satan, but that's another story).
So thank you again for sharing and God bless
Hi! I've been reading your blog for a while now, but I don't think I've ever commented before. Just wanted to send you a big THANK YOU for writing your blog. Having been brought up in a fundamental church and later converting to Catholicism, I feel like I could have written many of your posts myself. I still live in constant doubt about God and your blog is wonderful because it makes me feel like I am not the only one who is constantly having these thoughts. I think I am currently leaning towards Option 3. Right now, I feel like I don't know anything for sure and all I can try to do is love as Jesus loved. And if Option 4 is right, I'm probably pretty much screwed...
ReplyDeleteI think there is a lot of room between options 3 and 4. God could be satisfied with a good effort not necessarily demanding success.
ReplyDeleteAre you an atheist? That's up to you, I suppose. Right now, I don't think so. You may end up as an atheist, or spend some time as an atheist then go back to belief, or your faith may be stronger after you take a break from worrying about it.
ReplyDeleteI am an atheist. When did I become an atheist? I don't know, to be honest. I didn't self identify as an atheist until around 30, but I've never been good at belief, not even as a small child, and I probably truly lost my belief around the age of 20.
The real question isn't are you an atheist, but are you okay? Are you happy or scared, satisfied or tormented, calm or panicked? If constantly trying to believe as you were taught to believe makes you miserable and have nightmares, then I'd say you need to find something else to believe. That doesn't have to be nothing, just something different that doesn't hurt you.
You are a good person with a good heart, Youngmom, you deserve to be happy, not terrified. Wherever your journey leads you, please be as good to yourself as you are to others. You deserve your own kindness.
Not believing in the Fundamentalist view of God does not make one an atheist.
ReplyDeleteOn the Orthodox blog I've been reading, the Father had a good article about the "logocratic" tendencies of Western Christians. It basically means that we require everything to be explainable in words before we can believe it. We take all the spirituality out of our religion. And this leads, I think, to pigeonholing God, Jesus, miracles, evil, and everything else just like we do to other people.
If you forget the pigeonholes, God becomes something so much more vast; less personal perhaps, but more comforting. At least that how I feel about it.
I've read your blog for awhile but have never posted. I love your blog, because you are so honest with what you say. In this post you have summed up my thoughts perfectly. I appreciate your honesty and willingness to accept everyone no matter what they believe. I think, really if there is a God, wouldn't that be what he/she/it would want; acceptance of everyone's views. And I'm so happy that you have support from your husband, lots of people don't have that. :)
ReplyDeleteI doubt. I worry. I question. That's OK, and I think most people of faith do that. Doubting is a brave thing to do, and being as honest as you are is also so brave. I don't worry for you, because I trust in a loving God who will draw you to Himself in His good time, through your doubts and fears. He is patient.
ReplyDeleteI'd say you become an atheist the moment you think "atheist" is the word that best matches you or your beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI guess there are members of the self-definition police out there who would disagree but what the heck.
I became an atheist the day I realized that the operative criterion isn't whether I know god exists or not, but whether I think god exists or not. And when it came down to it, I didn't think God existed.
I wouldn't worry much about identification if I were you, although you could always go with "Apatheist" (which I hear means "I don't care either way"). But I'm really glad to hear you feel better and have stopped having nightmares about God !
I've never understood why so many Christians believe in God #4. Such a God has never appealed to me in the slightest. I've been known to say things like, "If Calvin was right, then it's irrelevant to me, because I would never worship, much less love, that God." (Hard-core Calvinism offers the clearest picture of God #4, but softer versions abound in western Christianity.)
ReplyDeleteI've been a lot of things over the course of my childhood and my twenties and explored many more things I never actually believed. And I've at least tasted more different ways that people suffer than any one person, perhaps, normally experiences -- though not to the extremes that people often suffer.
I call myself "Christian" because as I followed many paths, I kept running into your God #3. I would say that your not knowing what you are or what you believe (if anything at the moment) is not a problem for that God. In fact, since he loves relentlessly, most of faith involves sorting ourselves out -- our healing.
I'm not cut out for atheism. I have too deep a sense of, for lack of a better word, the "spiritual" aspect of reality. If I came to believe that Christianity was all about God #4, I'm not sure what I would believe. Hinduism just doesn't feel right to me anymore. I don't think that could still be a path for me. maybe Taoism. I've never been that, though I've always admired Lao Tzu.
Peace. I attend a church where I like the people, but don't really believe much of what they believe. My family (especially my wife) feels comfortable there and that took a long time for her. We don't slide into social groups easily or quickly. So I'm in no rush to find something that "fits" me or that I believe is more "right" (whatever that means). Besides, I spent a lot of my life pursuing what "suited" me. That never really got me anywhere worth being.
I really struggle with my faith in God too. I grew up in a very conservative Christian home. However, my only child-a sweet little boy-passed away almost 6 months ago. God created my son with a horrible heart defect and chose not to heal him and let him die at 3 years old. How do I reconcile that in my mind? I don't think I am an atheist yet, but it could happen. I am not nearly as articulate as you, just know you're not alone.
ReplyDeleteI'm an atheist and former fundamentalist evangelical christian who went through some of what you went through. I hope you keep searching and feel supported in your search. i hope you enjoy your children and your family. Eventually I couldn't go to church anymore and I was worried about the church filling my children's head with stuff i don't want in there. That is where I am now.
ReplyDeletePlease don't listen to people who criticize you for "playing church." If you were the pastor, perhaps such a critique would be merited. As the wife of a pastor, what would they have you do? Divorce your husband? Announce in church that you have doubts? You are being honest with yourself, supportive of your husband's vocation/call, and choosing to remain silent in some contexts about private matters you have every right to remain silent about. Hugs to you and all the best on your journey.
ReplyDeleteThis post actually makes me happy. Happy to see you fully confronting your beliefs and wanting to understand them.
ReplyDeleteLike you mentioned before in your post about praying for whatever evil was confronting your crying childen at night - we can wait passively for God to clearly hit us with an answer ala the burning bush, or we can take what he's revealed to us slowly and try to do the best we can on our own and if we get a burning bush down the road great! To further the analogy just remember how long it took, and how much Moses had to figure out on his own before God finally got down to business.
Honestly, I think if you're not questioning, doubting and wondering you're not really paying attention. So keep on doing exactly what you're doing, perhaps down the road you'll get the big answer you've been searching for.
This is a beautiful post---good luck to you in your life, your questioning, and your marriage.
ReplyDeleteI accepted my atheism when I realized that my wanting to believe in God and an afterlife wasn't a good enough reason for it to actually be real. It all made more sense as a historical invention of frightened people. I wasn't terribly happy about it at the time, but you get used to it. The universe is just as beautiful and amazing all by itself.
Love this article. My husband and I are in ministry and wrestle with the same things. I think most Christians do and they are afraid to admit it. If we can't be honest about our faith then what's the purpose of having a community of faith? We can only encourage people about *faith*..Jesus never said to encourage people in 'religion'.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite responses I've heard on this topic were from the priest at my former parish --
ReplyDelete"I don't believe in God."
"Tell me about the god you don't believe in."
*the person describes god #4*
"I don't believe in that god either. May I tell you about the God I DO believe in?"
And also:
"I don't believe in God."
"Ok... do you want to believe in God?"
"No, I don't honestly think that I do."
"Well... do you want to want to believe?"
"... perhaps... yes, I think that I do want to want to believe in God."
"Well, keep searching, and pray if you can, because God can work with that."
The loving, eternally patient God who took on flesh and became united with us in nature and in Communion... can be with us even in our doubt, so long as it's honest doubt.
Hi Melissa,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you read PZ Myers' blog Pharyngula or not, but even if you don't, I thought you might want to consider submitting this essay "Am I an Atheist?" for inclusion in his "Why I am an atheist" compendium. Submission instructions are here: Call for submissions
Anyway, the nightmares about God going away (for me it was nightmares about what might be if God is real) and the way you simply took a break from it all and realized life went on quite normally with a little less anxiety struck a chord with me, and even if you are not an out-and-out atheist (or even if you are somewhat of a deist), I think it would still resonate with other atheists.
I really appreciate the thoughtfulness and honesty with which you address these questions. I wish you the best in your journey, and warmly second Personal Failure's suggestion that wherever your exploration of these ideas is taking you, you should treat yourself with the same kindness you so evidently offer to others. As always, it's a pleasure to read your comments.
ReplyDeleteSome people would say they're atheist when they actively think that a god almost certainly doesn't exist. Others would say they're atheists when they don't have any active belief in a god. There's a little bit of flexibility in the term for you to choose when (if) it begins to apply to you.
I'm agnostic in the sense that of course I don't know whether any gods (including the three kinds you mention) exist. In that sense I think we should all strictly be agnostic, because we really can't know for certain.
However in practical terms, we generally think there are reasons for finding the proposition of a given god more or less likely. I don't currently see any reason to suppose that god(s) exist, and I don't have any active belief in any god(s), so in that sense, I'm atheist.
I also think some god(s) propositions are less likely than others, and have some degree of active disbelief in those propositions. For instance, currently your gods 3 and 4 both seem particularly unlikely to me.
Like most people I hold my current opinion for a mix of rational and emotional reasons. I'd love to think my opinions are perfectly justified by evidence and correct, but of course we're all vulnerable to bias and error all the time, so one should always be willing to keep checking one's opinions when one encounters evidence one hasn't met before!
I tried to post this comment before, and I think something went wrong. I hope this doesn't end up getting posted twice - sorry if so.
ReplyDeleteMelissa, as ever, it's a pleasure to read your thoughtful comments. I warmly second Personal Failure's recommendation to try and give yourself the same kindness you so evidently try and give to other people, wherever your explorations take you.
I'm agnostic, in the strict sense that I don't know for certain whether any gods exist:I think we all have to be agnostic in this strict sense. But in practice of course we think there are reason to consider one possibility more credible than another.
In practical terms therefore, I'm atheist, in that I don't currently find any proposals of god(s) sufficiently credible to have any belief in them. Some propositions seem so unlikely to me that I have some active disbelief in them, so atheism for me is currently a mixture of lack of belief and active disbelief, depending on the god(s) being discussed.
In any case, the point is not to achieve certainty! The aim is to keep questioning, and developing an impression of the world which is (hopefully) increasingly accurate.
Wow, I think you are viewing a relationship with God every single day in that man of yours who is loving you through this pain and that woman who is you continuing to love him, your children, and God.
ReplyDeleteWe, all of us, have your questions as we progress as pilgrims. I hope that my saying what I just did doesn't stab you with pain. I am trying to identify, and I am a Christian. I understand.
I sigh in my spirit over discussions like yours because you didn't do this to you. Church did. Please, as a sister in Christ, I ask you to forgive us.
Of course you can appreciate an atheist, but honestly, as a Christian I am sad for him/her. Because one thing is certain....if doesn't believe in God they certainly can't believe in Jesus Christ, and Him crucified for humankind and risen again. That is the one and only way to be in serious trouble in the afterlife (with the exception of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is the unforgivable sin). So I don't judge them, I ache inside. All the time.
That is the stinking problem with most of Christianity. Fear and unbelief shut out so many people. Jesus loves. We should love. If there are those who definitely and completely turn from God, we have no place to condemn. But we do have place to weep for them before God. Judging is none of our business, but Christians don't get that, either. *sigh* Father, forgive them for they know not what they do is what I'm a trying to learn!
I struggle with the love/obedience journey in Christianity, too. Nowadays, the fear factor is getting less and the love walk is getting more. But it is good to know He loves me. Period.
I want that for you.
Blessings today,
~Cara
Cara,
ReplyDeleteI didn't turn from God. Many former Christians, Muslims, Jews as well as other theists, through study and years of practicing and believing in their faith came to an understanding that "God" does not exist.
One cannot "turn from God" when there is no "God" to turn from.
(((Zoe)))
ReplyDeleteDearest Zoe,
And it is you whose opinion I respect. It is you for whom I weep on a daily basis.
Because whether or not we allow for the existence of God makes no difference in eternity. Our human perspective has no sway with reality of what comes after life on this earth.
And I want to fellowship with you, Zoe, in eternity. The Bible says that there is only one way to have that fellowship in eternity: Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man or woman comes to God except through Christ.
So I weep though I respect your choice. To be human is to have this choice which you are exercising, and it is indeed a privilege. I agree with you wholeheartedly right there. :)
But I beg you to reconsider, and I weep inside for you. It is okay if you do not like that because I will weep nonetheless.
And please forgive Christianity. We have not testified enough of the love of Christ in the United States. I don't know if that sweeping problem has been anything which has affected your unalienable right to choose, but if it was then I ask you to forgive us Christians because we have failed you in this regard, and we continue to do so.
To understand the sincerity of my writing, I invite you to look at my website: www.uncoverednomore.com
I call Christianity to come back because I was almost destroyed in a Christian context. Yes, and I am not the only one by far. My testimony is one of hope in Christ alone at this time and in this place of Christianity in the United States. Because, generally speaking, there is nowhere within the Christian world where balance is sure. There is very little balance. I have had to take my eyes off my fellow Christian neighbor and place them solely on Jesus Christ. My husband is also a lovely example of Christ like love in marriage, too, but there are many Christian women who do not have this saving factor to take for comfort. I am privileged in this regard, and yet, if you read my first book you will see that it was obeying my husband in allowing his mother to live with me which almost destroyed me, in large part.
Forgiveness and love in Christ Jesus are powerful unto restoration. But that does not take away from the difficulty among Christians as a whole, at least in this country.
Blessings,
~Cara
I find your blog very interesting because I have grown kids around your age and I wonder how they will look back on the life they lived in our home.Truly and only By the Grace of God, we have not gone through the things you did but we were and are not perfect parents so it will be interesting.We have a 22yr.old son who will be married soon.They met at our church and they have now dated 6 months.We have heard the courtship term for years and wondered how that would work and really for him and her although they don't like to say they are dating(both of them have never dated anyone else)they like to say courting..But,it is completely different then your story.Maybe I can share it with you someday.Anyway..I just want to encourage you and say that I think it's really good that you are thinking and dealing with all this now because I don't think I started to deal with stuff until I was in my late 30's and I'm now 50..lol..keep writing..
ReplyDeleteI wanted to write to tell you that I just found your blog, and I am in a similar place, spiritually. I am questioning and afraid of the judgement I will receive from those who used to know me when I was a very, very devout Christian. I started a blog in the hope that writing about my own thoughts and experiences might help me come to some kind of conclusion, whatever it is.
ReplyDeleteYou are not alone.
I bounced here from Zoe's link.
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to say that I really enjoyed your post and your candor.
It is awesome that you and your husband can overcome your differences. I can see myself doing exactly that kind of church-going if I was in that circumstance. I'm happy for you. :-)
Cara said, "...if [an atheist] doesn't believe in God they certainly can't believe in Jesus Christ, and Him crucified for humankind and risen again. That is the one and only way to be in serious trouble in the afterlife..."
ReplyDeleteIs it? I'm speaking as an atheist myself here, but my understanding of Christian doctrine is that Jesus died for everyone's sins. Yes, the next bit is about "that whosoever believes in him will have eternal life", which does indeed look like it's setting a condition for salvation - but I'm not sure that's how it was meant. I think you can also read it as poetic, rather than legalistic - as a description of how cool that is, rather than a clause detailing what you have to do first.
I'm an atheist because I see no reason to believe that God exists. (As Musical Atheist pointed out earlier, there's a strong element of agnosticism there, too.) I'm not a Christian because, on a fundamental level, Christianity makes no sense to me.
But I find it incredibly hard to believe that a loving, merciful, and just Creator would hold my doubts against me. Even Thomas had to touch the wounds for himself, and he knew Jesus personally! No, if God exists and if He's anything like the way Christianity describes him, I'm pretty sure He'll forgive my disbelief. I come by it honestly.
But without FAITH it is impossible to please him, for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6 I was there,too, thinking I had to please God with my works. But God wants us to BELIEVE that through his Son, JESUS CHRIST, he takes away ALL our sin.
ReplyDeleteI just discovered your blog through a comment on Love, Joy, Feminism - and what a great find! You have a great, concise writing style and lots of great observations...I'm sure I'll lose several hours of my life to your contributions.
ReplyDeleteI'm an atheist but grew up conservative Christian; the best I would say to you is to try and have good REASONS for every belief that you have. The kicker is that everyone will have different reasons for choosing (or not choosing) faith, and everyone will have a different yardstick for what "good" is.
As an atheist, I know that I cannot "disprove" God. I can look around in my life and in the world around me and come to the conclusion that there is no God to be found, but I can't look at the universe and say the same thing. I know that.
For me, it was a question of how important it was for me to know the truth and what needed to be done to maintain relationships with the religious people in my life. An honest examination of the evidence convinced me that I was indeed an atheist, but what you do with that knowledge is entirely up to you (and the degree of importance that you think the belief should have in your life).
I don't have children, and my husband is not a pastor. I can't, and would never, use my situation to try and justify yours.
I hope, though, that you can arrive at a place (in terms of belief) that is comfortable for you and your family. The pressure that you feel may be coming more from a place of indoctrination rather than truth - especially since you're still grappling with/"fearing" the Christian God - curious to note that we don't feel the same fear of eternal punishment for other gods, but only from the one we were taught.
I hope that you can find peace and happiness - enjoy the uncertainty! :)
First of all, I don't see your church-going as hypocrasy, but instead as a loving wife supporting your husband's vocation. But more importantly, it isn't anyone's job to judge whether you are "lying" to yourself or the church - at most, as your husband is the pastor, he would be the one to call you out on that as your shepherd.
ReplyDeleteYou ask a tricky question that I've never really thought about in those terms. I think I'm used to people being quite proud of their atheism. And maybe that's part of it. The God I believe in is loving. Forever. He never stops loving us, but He does allow us to walk away from him, or, by the grace of Christ turn back towards him. I don't think you need to understand or even know God all that well to make the decision to walk toward Him, and certainly the more time you've spent walking towards Him the better you will know Him. And the further you walk away, the harder it can be to break that pattern. But I think if you were an atheist, you would have made the decision to walk away. There is nothing there, you would say. And, _I_ am the center of this world. I am NOT saying that atheists are not loving, giving, generous people, some of whom are my friends, but more that, without a higher being in their world, they themselves become the highest being. Who may be very concerned for others, and loving and generous etc.
Do you feel you are there? Because it doesn't sound like you do. God loves you, and knows your heart. If you leave it open to Him, you will find your way to Him. And remember, conversion is not one decision, or one moment, but the sum total of all the moments in your life. But maybe that's the Catholic in me.
I think Hell is where you go when you have made the decision that you don't want To be with God, or you are more interested in yourself then Him. Because He doesn't force anyone to be in heaven with Him.
Hi Melissa, just discovered your blog after a bout of surfing from blogs of people I know to blogs of people I don't. So glad to have come across yours.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I would call myself a Christian anymore. I want Jesus to be real, and I have serious doubts that he was. I want him to be real, and even if he was in the way it's written down, I have serious doubts about his divinity - I have concerns that people have built up around him myths and legends that simply weren't there. But still, there's a part of me that stays open to that.
I want God to be real, and go through bouts like what you describe here in all of your options.
What I do know though is that my battle is one I'm allowed to have here in secular Australia. There, in your country, you get a plethora of well-meaning people trying to convert you back to the "US of A version of God". An interesting version, that god. Such a patriotic being he is, at the detriment of everybody else.
But anyway, I digress :) I loved this post and the way you described your feelings and thoughts. I hope this doesn't sound really corny, but there's something starkly beautiful about people's honesty in their doubts. Because doubt is such a no-no "negative" emotion, seeing it expressed so openly is just ... a really lovely thing. Thanks.
Just an FYI:
ReplyDeleteYour options generally fall into the following philosophical categories:
Option 1: Agnostic/Atheist
Option 2: Deistic
Option 3: Universalism
Option 4: Theistic
I learned this after my own deconversion from fundamentalist Christianity over a two year period.
Your last paragraph relieves me. It's sad to watch someone spend so many hours stressing and worrying over nothing. I'm glad that at least last October you were going to let it go and live your life.
ReplyDelete